A Conversation with Michael Gove

A Conversation with Michael Gove

Author: Samuel Stafford May 24, 2025 Duration: 48:19

This episode is a conversation between Sam Stafford and former Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the Rt Hon. the Lord Gove.

Famous in political circles. Infamous, some might say, in planning circles.

The Parliament of 2019-2024 was tumultuous for everybody, but for planning specifically it was an especially tumultuous time.

There was the 2020 'Planning for the Future' White Paper, which Mr Gove inherited in 2021, the same year as the Chesham & Amersham byelection. 2022 brought Mr Gove’s Devolution White Paper, his resignation and reappointment, the LURB, then the LURA, the rebellion against which over "top down" housing targets that precipitated the NPPF changes that were subsequently adopted in 2023.

Mr Gove talks Sam through all of that tumult. They also talked about strategic planning; about B.I.D.E.N; about the stance on housing that the now opposition Conservative Party should take into the next election: and they talked about the merits of 'big bang' planning reform versus pragmatic incrementalism. 

Some accompanying reading.

Foundations

https://ukfoundations.co/

National Planning Policy Fudge

https://samuelstafford.blogspot.com/2023/01/national-planning-policy-fudge.html

The Long-Term Plan for Housing II

https://samuelstafford.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-long-term-plan-for-housing-ii.html

Some accompanying Listening.

Only Memories Remain - My Morning Jacket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX-RDOp4XtE

Any other business.

50 Shades T-Shirts!

If you have listened to Episode 45 of the 50 Shades of Planning you will have heard Clive Betts say that...

'In the Netherlands planning is seen as part of the solution. In the UK, too often, planning is seen as part of the problem'.

Sam said in reply that that would look good on a t-shirt and it does. Further details can be found here.

Sam is on Bluesky (@samuelstafford.bsky.social) and Instagram (@samuel__stafford). His blog contains a link to his newsletter.


Samuel Stafford hosts 50 Shades of Planning, a podcast that digs into the often perplexing world of the English planning system. Rather than offering dry policy lectures, these conversations embrace the sector's inherent complexities and occasional absurdities. The aim is to provide a wide-ranging view, bringing in diverse voices from across the fields of planning, property, design, and development. You'll hear from practitioners, thinkers, and critics, each sharing their unique experiences and perspectives on how places are shaped. A recurring series within the podcast, titled 'Hitting The High Notes', features in-depth discussions with leading figures, examining pivotal career moments and influential projects. These talks are structured around six key planning milestones, offering a concrete framework for understanding professional journeys and systemic challenges. By weaving together themes from government, business, arts, and social sciences, this podcast reveals how planning sits at a crowded intersection of politics, economics, and community life. Tune in for thoughtful, sometimes surprising, explorations of the forces that decide what gets built, where, and why.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 164

50 Shades of Planning
Podcast Episodes
Not the NPPF [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 52:56
Last week, on NPPF deadline day, Sam Stafford was in Manchester and took the opportunity to catch up with friends of the podcast Katie Wray, David Diggle, Greg Dickson, Mark Parkinson and Claire Petricca-Riding at the st…
The YIMBY Crowd [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 53:57
"‘The moment has come’: pro-building Labour YIMBYs are set to raise the roof" was the title of a piece in the Observer ahead of the Labour Party Conference (link below). For many of the most ambitious of the new cohort o…
The Masterplan [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 55:56
If you have listened to episodes 125 and 128 you will know Sam Stafford sought to cover, pre-publication, what could and should be in the new version of NPPF. With the consultation deadline now starting to loom large, th…
Hitting the High Notes - Mike Best [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:04:55
In Hitting the High Notes episodes Sam Stafford chats to preeminent figures in the planning and property sectors about the six planning permissions or projects that helped to shape them as professionals. And, so that Lis…
To Rebuild or to Retrofit? [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 50:41
To rebuild or to retrofit? That is the question posed by former Secretary of State Michael Gove’s intervention in planning applications for the redevelopment of M&S’ Oxford Street store and the former Museum of London bu…
Labour of Love [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:44:41
Sam Stafford has mentioned previously that the podcast would consider the new Government’s reform agenda and this is an attempt at doing so. The specifics of the NPPF consultation will be covered in more depth in due cou…
Let's Get Digital [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:21:32
Long-serving Listeners might recall that for Episode 6 of 50 Shades of Planning Sam Stafford published a chat with Euan Mills, then of the Connected Places Catapult, on the potential for digital innovation, urban data, a…
Housing by Popular Demand [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 59:04
One of the new Labour Government’s manifesto pledges is the construction of 1.5 million new homes between now and the end of this new parliament. “We will ensure local communities continue to shape housebuilding in their…
What Do We Want? [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 54:29
With a General Election now imminent Sam Stafford thought that it might be interesting to try to compare what is being offered by the main political parties in relation to housing, planning and development with what the…
Efficiency Savings [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:05:10
In February 2024 Planning published a special report by Joey Gardiner entitled ‘how cost-saving consultants disrupted council planning services’. Cash-strapped councils have been following management consultants’ advice…