286: A Living Language for Cider

286: A Living Language for Cider

Author: Ria Windcaller: Award-winning Cidermaker, Podcaster | Craft Beer Columnist September 1, 2021 Duration: 1:14:09

The quest to find the Language of Cider

Richie Brady is a graduate of the Wine & Spirit Education Trust (WSET) who also happens to have a love of cider. This scholarly Irishman used his shelter in place time during Covid to take a deep dive into cider's history on the Emerald Isle where the first known writings on cider dates back to 1115! On this journey to he has found that cider and wine both share a similar fate - there is no absolute language to describe the fermented juice of apples and grapes.

The questions become one of defining "How to taste cider" and as such how does one delineate and then describe the wide range of cider styles. He found that the lexicon of cider like wine still has a long way to go as it develops a vocabulary.

In short, there is no common lexicon or language for cider.

286 Richie Brady 300x200

In this chat we discuss:

The Brehon Laws which are first set down on parchment in the 7th century and were named after wanderings lawyers, the Brehons. The Brehon Laws include details on the top trees to honor known as the "Lords of the Woods".

And yes, one of those  Top Trees was the Apple. And the law detailed that if you damaged an apple tree there was a fine of 2 cows that were milking and a third cow! Dependent upon the damage done there were additional fines, such as planting an apple tree of the same variety

All this deep digging into the history of Ireland and cider was in preparation for his thesis for a Masters in Gastronomy and Food Studies from Technological University Dublin (TUDublin ). Besides the Brehon Laws he also found historical writings from The Gentlemen's Society of Dublin, which then became the Royal Society. The Society's writings date back to 1737 and he found that they had a penchant for cider! Their love of cider was so keen and held in such high esteem that members  noted how they gifted each other with their fine cider.

Tracing a Language for Cider in Ireland

The Society's journals classified cider into 3 different styles.

Ep 286 Cider Chat -Richie Brady - holding paper 300x200

1. Summer Cider

  • "Described as a weak juice from summer apples that has no body and therefore barely deserves the name cider"
  • However, this cider was still drunk and recommended to age for 6 months

2. Autumn Cider

Apple varieties

  • Pearmain
  • Red Streak
  • Golden Pippin - palatable liquor but with too much sweetness
  • High raisin taste and keeps tolerably well

Age for a year

3. Wildings and Harsh winter apples

  • "To attain this should be the aim to all those who deal in cider/"
  • Described as a "roughest kind of cider" that is mellowed by age

Age in barrel for 3-5 years.

Example of varieties

  • Cockagee
  • Burlington crab
  • Kendrick
  • Royal Wilding

Developing Language

Wine vs Cider

  • Richie proposed that because wine is seen as something that can age well and continues to develop in the bottle it encouraged people to talk about wine more, thus the language of wine developed.
  • Whereas despite the fact that some ciders like wine also develops and ages well in a bottle, cider for the most part has been made to drink sooner than later.

Interestingly, even great wine writers like Jancis Robinson who wrote the highly touted Oxford companion to Wine describes the wine lexicon "in its infancy."

And French oenologist and researcher Émile Peynaud   says,

"We tasters to some extent feel betrayed by language"

How to create a language for Cider

  • Begin with agreeing to a specific style
    •  agree upon the taxonomy of cider - co-fermented cider, heirloom, farmhouse...

Richie proposes that we begin by:

1. Approaching the glass

  • What is the profile  of the cider in the glass
    • What is the acidity
    • Tannin? What is the nature of the tannin
    • The sweetness

2.  If 12 ciders have a similar profile, put them in a group together

3. What would we name this group

  • Staying focused on the taste profile

4. Define rules and put it in a style - create rules

These simple steps on paper are a bit more complex as it will require compromise between many different parties world wide. Luckily patience is something that cider and wine teaches to makers and consumers alike.

Contact for Richie Brady

Follow Richie on Twitter @2mindtime 

Mentions in this Chat

Australian Cider Producers

  • Small Acres Cyder
    •  
  • 3 Sons Cider 
  • Northwest Cider Club - cider from the Pacific Northwest shipped directly to YOU!
    • Try the elevated box of cider, give cider as a gift that keeps giving!

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.


There’s a whole world in a glass of cider, and Cider Chat is your invitation to explore it. Hosted by award-winning cidermaker and writer Ria Windcaller, this podcast travels far beyond the bottle to meet the people who make the global cider culture so vibrant. Each conversation is a journey-you might find yourself in a heritage orchard learning the history of forgotten apple varieties, in a bustling taproom with an importer explaining regional traditions, or in a kitchen with a chef pairing cider with unexpected foods. The discussions get into the delightful nuances, too, whether that’s the semantics of what we even call this drink or how the concept of terroir translates from soil to sip. It’s not just about production; it’s about the community, the travel, and the stories that fermentation unlocks. This is for anyone curious about the craft, history, and sheer enjoyment of fermented apple juice in all its forms. So, pour a glass and settle in for a series that feels like a wide-ranging, informative, and genuinely good-humored chat with friends who happen to be obsessed with cider. You’ll come away with a deeper appreciation for every effervescent, tart, or sweet sip, hearing directly from the growers, makers, and enthusiasts who are shaping this drink’s exciting present and future.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 501

Cider Chat
Podcast Episodes
408: Cider's Pomological Life Coach | Know Your Roots, NY [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:10:57
Mike Biltonen and his wife Debbie founded Know Your Roots in 2008 and began offering a wide array of service for backyard and commercial orchardists in 2014. Mike This conversation tool place at the Berkshire Roundtable…
407: Cider Log Tutorial w/Frosty Twig [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:01:56
Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts. A Cider Log Documents Ferments from Start to Finish Find a free downloadable Cider Log for your next ferment below! Dan Gallagher of Frosty Twig C…
406: Japan Is An Apple Country | Lee Reeve [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:00:10
Japan is not only Cherry Blossom, but also Apple Country! Lee Reeve of InCiderJapan kicks off this episode stating "Japan is Apple Country." And he is right… because Lee has been on the podcast 3x's and has taught listen…
405: Fruit, Flowers, & Feeling | Revel Cider, Ontario [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:07:08
Tariq Ahmed on the Founding and Fermentation Styles at Revel Revel Cider was founded in 2014 and is located in Ontario a little over one hour west of Niagara Falls. Hear Tariq tell how he both got into fermentation, how…
404: Uk's Ross Cider & Perry is Lit! [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:02:23
Featuring Albert Johnson of Ross Cider and Perry Company Ross Cider and Perry is a family owned business located in the West Country of the United Kingdom in the region of Heredfordshire. The Johnson family have been far…
403: Botanist and Barrel Eclectic Ferments | NC [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 58:33
Meet one half of the family team at Botanist and Barrel Botanist and Barrel is a family owned and operated cidery. Kether Smith and brother Lyndon and their respective spouses Derick McGuffey and Amie Fields make the mag…
402: Michigan's Simply, Spectacular PIF Cider [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:03:59
Meet the Founders of Presque Isle Farm Cider a.k.a PIF Molly and Dion Stepanski are the founders of of PIF Cider with an inviting Tasting Room located in Alpena, Michigan. They met in New Orleans where Dion was working a…
401: Celebrity Chef Brian Duffy Cider Pairing Tips [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:03:13
Chef Duffy Talks Cooking with Cider Chef Brian Duffy is one of the culinary's industry's most dynamic and innovative personalities. Chef Brian Duffy With a career that spans decades, He has been captivating audiences wit…
400: To Ciderville With Love [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 44:05
A Special Valentine to Ciderville with Love This episode is a special valentine to Ciderville with a little bit of help from the Talking Pommes and an eventful appearance by The Nose! We are in the Cider House reviewing…
399: Sweden Embraces Non Alcoholic Ciders at Pomologik [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 58:35
The Low ABV Cider Revolution in Sweden In Strängnäs Sweden, circa 2017, Johan Sjöstedt, Oskar Palm, and Patrik Svensk began selling ciders commercially under their brand Pomologik. They didn't set out to make low alcohol…