286: A Living Language for Cider

286: A Living Language for Cider

Author: Ria Windcaller: Award-winning Cidermaker, Podcaster | Craft Beer Columnist September 1, 2021 Duration: 1:14:09

The quest to find the Language of Cider

Richie Brady is a graduate of the Wine & Spirit Education Trust (WSET) who also happens to have a love of cider. This scholarly Irishman used his shelter in place time during Covid to take a deep dive into cider's history on the Emerald Isle where the first known writings on cider dates back to 1115! On this journey to he has found that cider and wine both share a similar fate - there is no absolute language to describe the fermented juice of apples and grapes.

The questions become one of defining "How to taste cider" and as such how does one delineate and then describe the wide range of cider styles. He found that the lexicon of cider like wine still has a long way to go as it develops a vocabulary.

In short, there is no common lexicon or language for cider.

286 Richie Brady 300x200

In this chat we discuss:

The Brehon Laws which are first set down on parchment in the 7th century and were named after wanderings lawyers, the Brehons. The Brehon Laws include details on the top trees to honor known as the "Lords of the Woods".

And yes, one of those  Top Trees was the Apple. And the law detailed that if you damaged an apple tree there was a fine of 2 cows that were milking and a third cow! Dependent upon the damage done there were additional fines, such as planting an apple tree of the same variety

All this deep digging into the history of Ireland and cider was in preparation for his thesis for a Masters in Gastronomy and Food Studies from Technological University Dublin (TUDublin ). Besides the Brehon Laws he also found historical writings from The Gentlemen's Society of Dublin, which then became the Royal Society. The Society's writings date back to 1737 and he found that they had a penchant for cider! Their love of cider was so keen and held in such high esteem that members  noted how they gifted each other with their fine cider.

Tracing a Language for Cider in Ireland

The Society's journals classified cider into 3 different styles.

Ep 286 Cider Chat -Richie Brady - holding paper 300x200

1. Summer Cider

  • "Described as a weak juice from summer apples that has no body and therefore barely deserves the name cider"
  • However, this cider was still drunk and recommended to age for 6 months

2. Autumn Cider

Apple varieties

  • Pearmain
  • Red Streak
  • Golden Pippin - palatable liquor but with too much sweetness
  • High raisin taste and keeps tolerably well

Age for a year

3. Wildings and Harsh winter apples

  • "To attain this should be the aim to all those who deal in cider/"
  • Described as a "roughest kind of cider" that is mellowed by age

Age in barrel for 3-5 years.

Example of varieties

  • Cockagee
  • Burlington crab
  • Kendrick
  • Royal Wilding

Developing Language

Wine vs Cider

  • Richie proposed that because wine is seen as something that can age well and continues to develop in the bottle it encouraged people to talk about wine more, thus the language of wine developed.
  • Whereas despite the fact that some ciders like wine also develops and ages well in a bottle, cider for the most part has been made to drink sooner than later.

Interestingly, even great wine writers like Jancis Robinson who wrote the highly touted Oxford companion to Wine describes the wine lexicon "in its infancy."

And French oenologist and researcher Émile Peynaud   says,

"We tasters to some extent feel betrayed by language"

How to create a language for Cider

  • Begin with agreeing to a specific style
    •  agree upon the taxonomy of cider - co-fermented cider, heirloom, farmhouse...

Richie proposes that we begin by:

1. Approaching the glass

  • What is the profile  of the cider in the glass
    • What is the acidity
    • Tannin? What is the nature of the tannin
    • The sweetness

2.  If 12 ciders have a similar profile, put them in a group together

3. What would we name this group

  • Staying focused on the taste profile

4. Define rules and put it in a style - create rules

These simple steps on paper are a bit more complex as it will require compromise between many different parties world wide. Luckily patience is something that cider and wine teaches to makers and consumers alike.

Contact for Richie Brady

Follow Richie on Twitter @2mindtime 

Mentions in this Chat

Australian Cider Producers

  • Small Acres Cyder
    •  
  • 3 Sons Cider 
  • Northwest Cider Club - cider from the Pacific Northwest shipped directly to YOU!
    • Try the elevated box of cider, give cider as a gift that keeps giving!

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.


There’s a whole world in a glass of cider, and Cider Chat is your invitation to explore it. Hosted by award-winning cidermaker and writer Ria Windcaller, this podcast travels far beyond the bottle to meet the people who make the global cider culture so vibrant. Each conversation is a journey-you might find yourself in a heritage orchard learning the history of forgotten apple varieties, in a bustling taproom with an importer explaining regional traditions, or in a kitchen with a chef pairing cider with unexpected foods. The discussions get into the delightful nuances, too, whether that’s the semantics of what we even call this drink or how the concept of terroir translates from soil to sip. It’s not just about production; it’s about the community, the travel, and the stories that fermentation unlocks. This is for anyone curious about the craft, history, and sheer enjoyment of fermented apple juice in all its forms. So, pour a glass and settle in for a series that feels like a wide-ranging, informative, and genuinely good-humored chat with friends who happen to be obsessed with cider. You’ll come away with a deeper appreciation for every effervescent, tart, or sweet sip, hearing directly from the growers, makers, and enthusiasts who are shaping this drink’s exciting present and future.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 501

Cider Chat
Podcast Episodes
358: Apple History, Terroir and Cider of New York | CiderCon 2023 [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:02:14
Newtown Pippin, Northern Spy and Esopus Spitzenberg apples and cider in New York A pre-recorded seminar from CiderCon 2023 with 3 influential panelist based in New York. [caption id="attachment_8097" align="aligncenter"…
357: Purchase Cider Online | Press Then Press [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 51:09
Meet the Storie and Erik of Press Then Press Storie Madrid first connected with Ria at Cider Chat via Twitter. In this niche market it is easy to get close to people of similar interests and passions. Storie has recently…
356: Holistic Fruit Growers Roundtable | Maine Apple Camp [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 59:06
Discover Holistic Growing Practices Enjoy this roundtable discussion moderated by Glen Koehler with 4 holistic practitioners. This roundtable was recorded at Maine Apple Camp 2022. Holistic Panelist Eric Shatt - Redbyrd…
355: CiderCon Recap and Awards 2023 [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 46:15
Chicago Cider Week, Cider Tours, Interviews, Awards and Cider Summit The week of January 30th - February 4th was packed with cider related events all based in Chicago. CiderCon, the annual conference hosted by the Americ…
354: Preserving Historical Varieties of Apples & Pears [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:19:23
Are Historical Apple and Pears varieties at of becoming Extinct? It appears it is not a question of if, when historical varieties are no longer with us as climate change and other mitigation factors such as land developm…
353: Apple Historian John Bunker Q&A | Maine Apple Camp [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 58:59
Preservation Tips from an Apple Historian John Bunker is a self identified Apple Historian and an Apple Detective, Author of numerous books on the topic of Apples and Founder of FEDCO Trees. In the previous podcast episo…
352: Apples in Gravel? Maine Heritage Orchard | Part 1 [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:05:09
John Bunker on Maine Heritage Orchard: Successes and Challenges over the First Ten Years This is Part 1 with John Bunker, who is both an author, Founder of FEDCO Trees, an Apple Historian and a key person behind the Main…
351: Cidermakers' Roundtable | Maine Apple Camp [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:01:53
Enjoy this Roundtable Discussion w/4 makers from Maine Kris Hogg formally of Perennial Cider Bar in Maine moderates this panel discussion that was held at the Maine Apple Camp in August of 2022. The topics are wide rangi…
350th Episode Celebration at Cider Chat [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 49:22
Season 7 and the Episodes of Cider Chat This episode marks the 350th episode of this weekly podcast and the end of Season 7. The Nose and Ria sat down for a dinner chat and looked over the past season. The dinner was des…
349: Super Power of Bradford Pear with Eliza Greenman [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:05:02
Any relation to the Greenman's of Mystic, Connecticut? When fruit explorer and horticultural historian Eliza Greenman received a call from owners of an overgrown orchard asking if she was related to the Greenman's who pl…