RCT of PC in ED: Corita Grudzen, Fernanda Bellolio, & Tammie Quest

RCT of PC in ED: Corita Grudzen, Fernanda Bellolio, & Tammie Quest

Author: Alex Smith, Eric Widera April 10, 2025 Duration: 50:34

Early in my research career, I was fascinated by the (then) frontier area of palliative care in the emergency department.  I asked emergency medicine clinicians what they thought when a patient who is seriously ill and DNR comes to the ED, and some responded, (paraphrasing), what are they doing here? This is not why I went into emergency medicine. I went into emergency medicine to act. I can't do the primary thing I've been trained to do: ABC, ABC, ABCs.  Most emergency providers wanted to do the right thing for seriously ill patients, but they didn't have the knowledge, skills, or experience to do it.

Today we focus on an intervention, published in JAMA, that gave emergency clinicians basic palliative care knowledge, training, and skills.  We talk with Corita Grudzen and Fernanda Bellolio about their cluster stepped wedge randomized trial of a palliative care intervention directed at emergency clinicians.  They got training in Vital Talk and ELNEC.  They got a decision support tool that identified hospice patients or those who might benefit from a goals of care discussion.  They got feedback.

So did it matter?  Hmmm….it depends.  We are fortunate to have Tammie Quest, emergency and palliative trained and long a leader in this space, to help us unpack and contextualize these findings.

Today we discuss:

  • Why the study was negative for the primary (hospitalization) and all secondary outcome (e.g. hospice use).

  • Why to emergency clinicians, this study was a wild success because they had the skills they wanted/needed to feel like they could do the right thing (during the onset of Covid no less).

  • Why this study was a success due to the sheer size (nearly 100,000 patients in about 30 EDs) of the study, and the fact that, as far as the investigators know, all study sites continue to employ the clinical decision support tool.

  • What is a cluster stepped wedge randomized trial? 

  • Were they surprised by the negative findings?

  • How do we situate this study in the context of other negative primary palliative care interventions, outside the ED?  E.g. Yael Shenker's negative study of primary palliative care for cancer, Randy Curtis's negative study of a Vital Talk-ish intervention, Lieve Van den Block's negative study of primary PC in nursing homes. Why do so many (most, all??) primary palliative care interventions seem to fail, whereas specialized palliative care interventions have a relatively robust track record of success. Should we give up on primary palliative care?  What's next for primary palliative care interventions in the ED?

And if your Basic Life Support training certification is due, you can practice the correct chest compression rate of 110 beats per minute to Another One Bites the Dust.

-Alex Smith




Hosted by UCSF physicians Alex Smith and Eric Widera, GeriPal-A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast creates a vital space for conversation at the intersection of aging and serious illness care. This isn't a dry lecture series; it's a dynamic dialogue where Eric and Alex bring on leading experts to unpack the complexities of geriatric and palliative medicine. They delve into the latest research that should change practice, tackle the ethical dilemmas that provoke debate, and explore the nuanced clinical challenges that professionals face daily. The tone is engaging and often surprisingly lighthearted, with moments of humor and even the occasional song, making profound topics more accessible. Whether you're a clinician, nurse, social worker, or any professional dedicated to this field, this podcast offers a blend of evidence-based insights and practical wisdom you can use. It’s a resource that acknowledges the weight of the work while fostering connection and continued learning. For those seeking formal education credits, AMA PRA Category 1 CME and MOC credit are also available through the show. Tune in to join a community committed to improving care for older adults and those with serious illness.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
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