Surviving chaos

Surviving chaos

Author: ECFR April 24, 2026 Duration: 1:13:40

This week in London, Mark Leonard introduced his new book Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail and reflected on what it means to navigate a world in which old assumptions about rules-based order, power and international cooperation no longer hold.


ECFR’s new weekly accompaniment podcast series “Surviving Chaos” will introduce the most interesting and controversial thinkers to explain the current period. The first episode brings together a conversation between Mark and Carl Bildt, former prime minister and former foreign minister of Sweden; Ivan Krastev, chair of the Centre for Liberal Strategies; and Helle Thorning-Schmidt, former prime minister of Denmark, moderated by Gideon Rachman, chief foreign affairs commentator at the Financial Times.


Opening the discussion, EU ambassador to the UK Pedro Serrano highlighted the importance of a strong and united Europe in defending peace, prosperity and democratic values, before the panel explored how policymakers can move from rigid grand strategies to more “artisan” approaches to power. They also considered whether the current moment represents a temporary crisis or a deeper rupture—and the impact on Europe’s security, economic model and political identity.

From the future of the transatlantic relationship to the war in Ukraine, to AI surveillance and the Middle East, the discussion examined how global instability is impacting the choices facing European decision-makers. Drawing on Mark’s argument that the world is in an age of “unorder”, the speakers discussed the types of political imagination, resilience and practical action Europeans will need. The crucial question: How can Europe navigate chaos?


Mark Leonard’s book Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail is now available in all bookstores and online.


This episode will also be published on the EEAS website.


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Each week, Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes cuts through the noise of global headlines to explore the deeper forces at play. Curated by Mark Leonard, who directs the European Council on Foreign Relations, this ECFR podcast brings together leading thinkers, policymakers, and analysts from across Europe and the wider world. Their conversations move beyond the day's news to debate the underlying policies, strategic ideas, and geopolitical shifts that are actively shaping our future. The focus is consistently on understanding Europe's place in a complex international landscape, examining how it responds to crises and where it can exercise influence. Recognized for its quality with PolicyLab's 2019 award for best podcast on EU politics, this series delivers concise, substantive dialogue that fits into a busy schedule. As part of the EuroPod network, it offers a vital perspective for anyone looking to grasp not just what is happening, but why it matters. Tune in for a regular dose of informed discussion that connects the dots between events, decisions, and their long-term consequences.
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Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes
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