Just in time for Halloween! We’re talking about zombie pathogens, evil qi, old bogeys, spectral entities, ghost possession, and a super deadly worm that’s created by black magic.
That’s right, we’re peering into the dark corners of Traditional Chinese Medicine, in search of some forgotten ghosts. And there’s no better guide for our expedition that Robert Hayden.
Robert Hayden has been an acupuncturist for 27 years and an educator for over 20 years. He practices at Presence Center for Acupuncture in South Florida, and also researches and writes about all sorts of interesting Chinese medicine topics on Substack at Clinical Mulch.
I invited Robert to join me on the podcast to talk about some of his favorite topics, which include some centuries-old principles that have been swept away from the modern construct we call Traditional Chinese Medicine.
Our conversation covers a lot of ground. First, we condense 1500 years of pathogenic factor theory into about five minutes. Then we talk about how to apply these age-old principles to modern diseases—things like autoimmune disorders, Lyme disease, and long covid. We touch on the innate intelligence of herbs, and the idea of expelling pathogens from the body by guiding them towards a convenient exit. Robert also introduces us to the Divine Farmer and the supernatural properties of herbs—accepted uses for our medicine that persisted for thousands of years, before being purged from the materia medica in the 20th century. Did I mention ghosts? And demon possession? And old bogeys? And something called Gu toxin? It’s a wild ride through the paranormal passageways of our medicine.
One of my favorite things about talking to other acupuncturists on this podcast is the renewed appreciation it gives me for the medicine I practice. This conversation with Robert certainly didn’t disappoint—I learned new herbs, new ways of looking at old theories, and even some new pathogens to watch out for.
As I said to Robert at the end of our conversation, “I feel like I’ve gone back to acupuncture school…in a good way!”
Towards the end of the episode, I reference a recent Facebook post from Robert. Here’s that full quote:
In acupuncture, we have something really unique: an inexpensive, simple way to regulate and even improve function on everything from a biochemical level to a mental-emotional (some would even say spiritual) level, that can be done on virtually everyone in any stage of life.
Instead, what we are trying to do is to promote it as an alternative (and thus, competition) to modalities that already exist: "It's like painkillers but without the side effects", "It's like Botox without shooting poisons into your face", or what have you.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that some ERs are starting to use acupuncture for pain management. I enjoy seeing more scientific attention to possible mechanisms for some discreet effect of acupuncture such as pain control. It's fantastic that people are finding that they have fewer wrinkles and thus improve their capacity to love themselves and be more confident in the world. But don't go throwing all your eggs into the reductionist basket. You're limiting the potential of something that can give us so much more.
It's like finding Excalibur and using it to cut weeds in your yard. What we have is unique. Don't lose sight of that.
So brew yourself a strong cup of herbal tea and settle in for an adventure. Let’s find out what haunts those old, boarded-up rooms in the mansion of Traditional Chinese Medicine.
Love and gratitude,
Your Acupuncturist
Huge thanks to Robert Hayden for the great conversation, and to AudioCoffee for the music in this episode.
How to keep up with Robert:
Presence Center for Acupuncture in South Florida: http://presencecommunityacupuncture.org
Clinical Mulch on Substack: https://clinicalmulch.substack.com
On Instagram @presence.center.acupuncture
And big thanks as always to my paid subscribers for making my work more sustainable!
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
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