Making Room for Disagreement: Jonathan Rauch & Liz Joyner on Heterodox Academy and the Courage to Keep Talking

Best Of TP&R As we close out the year, we’re resurfacing a small handful of conversations from the Talkin’ Politics & Religion Without Killin’ Each Other archive that best reflect what this show exists to do: create space for thoughtful disagreement, moral seriousness, and the hard work of living together in a pluralistic democracy. This conversation with Jonathan Rauch and Liz Joyner stands out as a true highlight — not just because of the ideas discussed, but because of the spirit in which they’re explored: curiosity, generosity, and an insistence that liberal democracy is something we must actively practice. Whether this is your first time hearing it or you’re returning to it, I’m really glad you’re here.   Why defending viewpoint diversity might be the most radical—and necessary—act in higher education today. What a treat to welcome two leading voices in the fight for viewpoint diversity and constructive civic dialogue: Jonathan Rauch, senior fellow at Brookings and author of The Constitution of Knowledge, and Liz Joyner, founder of The Village Square. Recorded at a moment of rising polarization — and resurfaced now because its insights have only grown more urgent — Jon and Liz unpack the mission of Heterodox Academy (HxA). As board members, Jon and Liz unpack the organization’s mission to restore open inquiry and truth-seeking within higher education—and how these values are essential to preserving our democracy at large. With personal stories, sharp analysis, and even a few laughs, they explore what we each can do to counter the ecosystem of illiberalism and strengthen the social fabric. Calls to Action: ✅ If this episode resonates, consider sharing it with someone who might need a reminder that disagreement doesn’t have to mean dehumanization. ✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform. ✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics ✅ Check out our Substack: coreysnathan.substack.com ✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion Timestamps & Topics [00:00:00] Intro: What’s broken in our democracy and how we fix it [00:01:00] Meet the guests: Jonathan Rauch and Liz Joyner [00:03:00] What is Heterodox Academy and how did it begin? [00:06:00] Rauch on early signs of "wokeness" and Kindly Inquisitors [00:08:00] Joyner’s grassroots experience with ideological diversity at Village Square [00:10:00] The "ecosystem of illiberalism" and why liberal principles matter [00:15:00] Can HxA help defend against external political coercion? [00:20:00] Are we headed toward institutional collapse or renewal? [00:25:00] Speech vs. coercion: The cultural and legal frontlines [00:33:00] Personal costs of speaking out: Corey’s Chappelle story [00:36:00] What should institutions do to defend free speech? [00:39:00] On the Trump administration’s authoritarian tactics [00:45:00] Fears for 2026 and 2028 elections [00:48:00] Signs of progress: Academic reform, FIRE, and HxA programs [00:54:00] How to break the cycle of intolerance [00:56:00] How do we actually talk to people who disagree? [01:01:00] "Love people back into communion with liberalism" [01:08:00] The local vs. national divide—learning from LA’s fires & ICE raids [01:14:00] Final reflections: Reclaiming truth, curiosity, and compassion Key Takeaways Liberalism needs defenders: Jon reminds us that truth-seeking demands criticism—and that “criticism hurts, but it’s necessary.” Civic spaces matter: Liz underscores the importance of local, respectful dialogue and building trust before crisis hits. The ecosystem is the problem: Illiberalism isn't coming from just one side; it’s a reactive spiral we must all help disrupt. Institutions must hold firm: It's not disagreement that's dangerous—it's coercion by powerful entities that silence dissent. E