What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide with Aaron Sandel

What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide with Aaron Sandel

Author: Vox Media Podcast Network September 3, 2026 Duration: 1:25:40
Primatologist Aaron Sandel has spent over a decade studying the Ngogo chimpanzees, witnessing one of the largest known chimp communities split into two factions. In this episode, Aaron joins Brené and Adam to explore what chimpanzees can teach us about friendship, conflict, belonging, and human nature. He shares what he learned from watching these chimps show affection, navigate dominance hierarchies, and face the effects of division within their own community.  Aaron also reflects on what it was like to watch chimps he knew by name turn against one another, while exploring the surprising depth of bonds between chimpanzees. Together, they explore the parallels between chimpanzee behavior and the ways we harmonize, polarize, and build communities in our own lives. Prof. Aaron Sandel – Aaron Sandel, aaron-sandel.com The Ngogo Chimpanzee Project – Watts, D., et al., ngogochimpanzeeproject.org Male-Male Relationships and the Transition to Adulthood in Chimpanzees – Sandel, A., 2017, University of Michigan (PhD Dissertation) First Clearly Documented Split in World’s Largest Known Chimpanzee Community Leads to Deadly Violence – Erin Walters, April 9, 2026, UT Austin News Lethal Conflict After Group Fission in Wild Chimpanzees – Sandel, A., et al., 2026, Science Hunting Behavior of Chimpanzees at Ngogo, Kibale National Park, Uganda – Watts, D. & Mitani, J., 2002, International Journal of Primatology Is a chimp a monkey? – Catherine Annau & Tatiana Hayek, January 4, 2017, Jane Goodall Institute Canada Chimp Empire – Directed by James Reed, narrated by Mahershala Ali, April 19, 2023, Netflix (Documentary Series) Chimp Empire | Mahershala Ali | Official Trailer – Netflix, March 22, 2023, YouTube (Video) Conflicted Opinion: Yale Chimpanzee Expert Weighs In on 'Chimp Empire' – Mike Cummings, June 8, 2023, YaleNews Which Chimp Is Which in Chimp Empire? – Netflix, April 26, 2023, Netflix Tudum What Happened to the Chimps in ‘Chimp Empire?’ – Netflix Tudum, May 2, 2023, Netflix Kibale National Park – Google, Google Maps (Map) Kibale National Park – Kibale Chimpanzee Project, Harvard University Uganda Wildlife Authority – Uganda Wildlife Authority, ugandawildlife.org Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience – Brené Brown, 2021, brenebrown.com (Book) The Social Self: On Being the Same and Different at the Same Time – Brewer, M., 1991, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin How Was Chimp Empire Made? – Netflix Tudum, May 2, 2023, Netflix Male Chimpanzees Form Enduring and Equitable Social Bonds – Mitani, J., 2009, Animal Behaviour My Life Among the Apes – Mitani, J., 2020, American Journal of Primatology Rise of the Warrior Apes – James Reed (Director), 2017, KEO Films (Film - Prequel to Chimp Empire) Most VIOLENT Chimpanzee Society Ever Discovered | Rise of the Warrior Apes – Discovery Australia, February 16, 2018, YouTube (Video) What a Chimpanzee ‘Civil War’ Can Teach Us About How Societies Fall Apart – Nathan Rott, April 13, 2026, NPR Lethal Aggression in Pan Is Better Explained by Adaptive Strategies Than Human Impacts – Wilson, M., et al., 2014, Nature Intergroup Aggression in Chimpanzees and War in Nomadic Hunter-Gatherers: Evaluating the Chimpanzee Model – Wrangham, R. & Glowacki, L., 2012, Human Nature UT Researchers Find Polarization, Lethal Conflict Among Chimpanzees – Khoi Nguyen, April 21, 2026, The Daily Texan Adolescent Male Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) Form Social Bonds With Their Brothers and Others During the Transition to Adulthood – Sandel, A., et al., 2020, American Journal of Primatology Glimpses of Fatherhood Found in Non-Pair-Bonding Chimps – University of Texas at Austin, January 15, 2020, ScienceDaily Human Respiratory Viruses Continue to Spread in Wild Chimpanzees – University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, January 2019, UW-Madison Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead – Brené Brown, 2012, brenebrown.com (Book) Anthropomorphism and Anthropodenial: Consistency in Our Thinking About Humans and Other Animals – de Waal, F., 1999, Philosophical Topics Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? – Frans de Waal, 2016, W. W. Norton (Book) Constraints on Relationship Formation Among Female Primates – Barrett, L. & Henzi, S., 2002, Behaviour The Nicomachean Ethics of Aristotle – Aristotle, translated by F. H. Peters, 1893, Project Gutenberg (Book) Think Your Adolescence Was Hard? Try Being a Chimp – Harvard Gazette, May 21, 2026, Harvard University Social Relationships Between Chimpanzee Sons and Mothers Endure but Change – Reddy, R. & Sandel, A., 2020, Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology Puberty Initiates a Unique Stage of Social Learning and Development Prior to Adulthood: Insights From Studies of Adolescence in Wild Chimpanzees – Reddy, R., et al., 2022, Developmental Cognitive Neuroscience Male–Male Relationships in Chimpanzees and the Evolution of Human Pair Bonds – Sandel, A., 2023, Evolutionary Anthropology Romantic Love in Humans May Have Evolved From Same-Sex Friendship – Lauren Macknight, June 7, 2023, Phys.org ‘It’s Like ‘Game of Thrones’’: Otter Clans Wage War Over Space in Singapore – Maina Chen, October 25, 2021, Yahoo News Conservation – The Ngogo Chimpanzee Project, ngogochimpanzeeproject.org Mass Communication and Para-Social Interaction: Observations on Intimacy at a Distance – Donald Horton & R. Richard Wohl, 1956, Psychiatry 19(3):215-229  Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know – Adam Grant, 2021, adamgrant.net (Book) Callings – Amy Wrzesniewski, 2010, September 1, 2010, The Oxford Handbook of Positive Organizational Scholarship Unpacking Emotion Differentiation: Transforming Unpleasant Experience by Perceiving Distinctions in Negativity – Kashdan, T., et al., 2015, Current Directions in Psychological Science How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain – Lisa Feldman Barrett, 2017, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt (Book) Does Language Do More Than Communicate Emotion? – Lindquist, K., et al., 2015, Current Directions in Psychological Science Brené Brown Says You’re Doing Feelings Wrong – Dan Harris, April 2022, Ten Percent Happier (Podcast) Ancestral Diversity – Niedenthal Emotions Lab, University of Wisconsin–Madison Great Ape Gestures: Intentional Communication With a Rich Set of Innate Signals – Byrne, R., et al., 2017, Animal Cognition Towards a Great Ape Dictionary: Inexperienced Humans Understand Common Nonhuman Ape Gestures – Graham, K. & Hobaiter, C., 2023, PLOS Biology Learn more about your ad choices. 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Imagine a conversation where the goal isn't to win, but to wander. That's the space created in The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant. Each week, research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant meet not as definitive experts, but as dedicated practitioners of a more thoughtful dialogue. In a culture that often confuses loudness for clarity, this podcast from the Vox Media Podcast Network offers a different rhythm. You'll hear them challenge their own assumptions and gently interrogate complex ideas from society and culture, demonstrating that true understanding often begins with admitting what you don't know. Their discussions are a practical masterclass in intellectual humility, focusing on the power of better questions rather than the delivery of tidy answers. Listening feels like being invited into a rare, thoughtful exchange where curiosity is the highest currency. The result is a series of conversations that don't simplify the world's messiness but engage with it more honestly, encouraging everyone who tunes in to reconsider how they learn, think, and connect with others. It’s a weekly reminder that growth is found in the nuance, and that some of the most important discoveries start with a simple, "I wonder."
Author: Language: English Episodes: 50

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
Podcast Episodes
Uncertainty is Not the Enemy [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:08:12
Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships a…
Overconfidence and the Art of Knowing Yourself [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 59:44
What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu’s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition—how to notice your thinki…
Mission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:02:59
This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear,…
How This Podcast Could Fail [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:10:50
Brené and Adam have a bracingly honest conversation about what could go wrong in their collaboration, and how to set new teams, partnerships, and friendships up for success. They discuss the science of avoiding failure a…
Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:02:15
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop! In the inaugural episode, Brené and Adam discuss how a public disagreement about authenticity almost ended their relationship before it began. For the first time, they discuss where they we…
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 0:27
Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards c…
Brené on Strong Ground Ask Me Anything, Part 2 of 2 [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 21:38
In the second part of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené shares an excerpt from the Strong Ground audiobook that walks listeners through the one topic that elicited the most questions — the Above/Belo…
Brené on Strong Ground Ask Me Anything, Part 1 of 2 [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 25:39
In part one of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené answers questions from listeners about mindset shifts, leading from where you are, and courage and boldness in uncertain times. She highlights the imp…
Brené and Adam Grant on Rewarding Effort With Time [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 35:15
In the final episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam discuss the problem with rewarding all effort as excellence. Instead, leaders should reward effort that is not leading to success or…
Brené and Adam Grant on the Skillsets of Empathy [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 48:09
In the fifth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam break down the skillsets of empathy, empathy misses, and how empathy is trickier than walking in someone else’s shoes. They discuss…