How Science Can Fix Dishonest AI - Yoshua Bengio with Nicholas Thompson

In the years following the launch of ChatGPT, as concerns spread over the social and political impacts of LLMs, one person’s warnings seemed particularly dire: Yoshua Bengio’s, a scientist  and one of the “godfathers” of AI. The potential negative impacts of his life’s work weighed so heavily on Bengio that he signed his name to an open letter advocating for a pause in AI research. (The pause didn’t happen.) But recently, Bengio has found renewed optimism as he pursues a project dubbed “Scientist AI.” The pitch: What if AI didn’t care about pleasing us, and instead, like a scientist, prioritized accuracy, honesty, and probable outcomes? In a conversation with Nicholas Thompson, CEO of The Atlantic, Bengio outlines why he thinks this approach will produce better outcomes, the challenges to implementing a model that polices other (often better-funded) models, and why the age of AI– so far marked by an international arms race– will need greater international cooperation. (00:00) Introduction (05:00) Can we understand what's happening inside neural network vectors and attention systems? (07:00) How ChatGPT changed Bengio’s risk assessment  (09:37) The case for optimism (at least when it comes to technical solutions)  (12:30) The alignment problem: AI self-preservation drives and hidden agendas emerging (14:26) Can we train AIS to understand the world without changing it? Introducing Scientist AI (15:52) Using Scientist AI as a guardrail to evaluate risks of actions from other AIs (19:37) Sycophancy problem: current AIs pleasing users leads to harmful psychological effects (22:20) The difference between Scientist AI and current value-aligned systems (Anthropic, OpenAI) (24:06) Will AI capabilities slow down or continue accelerating beyond human intelligence? (29:58) US-China AI race: mutual risk requiring coordination like nuclear deterrence (31:57) UN AI advisory group with Maria Ressa: synthesizing science independently of politics (33:18) Sovereign AI for middle powers: partnering to avoid domination by US/China (37:54) Bengio's regret about not speaking up on AI risks earlier in his career (40:12) How liability insurance and regulatory incentives could make safety commercially viable (42:42) Why Europe lags in AI: capital markets and risk culture, not just regulation (46:43) Energy consumption from AI growth and impact on fossil fuel demand Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices