Teaching Meaning: Beyond "Just Tell Them"

Teaching Meaning: Beyond "Just Tell Them"

Author: ThoughtStretchers Education July 15, 2026 Duration: 1:19:41

Drew Perkins talks with with author and educator Christian Moore to critically examine the "just tell them" model of instruction often championed by popular "science of learning" advocates. Drawing from his book, Teaching Meaning: What Works When Telling Isn't Enough, Moore introduces the framework of "enactivism"—the cognitive science-based perspective that meaning cannot be simply transmitted from teacher to student, but must be actively enacted through experience. This conversation challenges the reliance on scripted, atomized curricula and argues for a "Teaching With" approach that prioritizes professional judgment, relational adaptation, and the critical role of variation in student learning.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

Key Takeaways & Learning Objectives

  • The Enactivist Framework: Understand the shift from viewing students as "storage vessels" to "active inferencers" who construct meaning through mutual, relational adaptation.
  • Defining Instructional Stances: Distinguish between "Teaching To" (agreement-based), "Exploring With" (discovery-based), and "Teaching With" (relational adaptation), and why the latter is the most effective for deep understanding.
  • The Role of Variation: Discover why "variety gives meaning"—and how structuring lessons around key distinctions rather than isolated facts helps students make sense of complex systems.
  • Critiquing the "Science of Learning": Explore the limitations of pre-requisite knowledge checks and rigid cognitive load strategies that can sometimes deskill teachers and reduce learning to shallow recitation.
  • Restoring Professional Agency: Learn why experienced educators must prioritize community of practice over top-down, punitive administrative mandates to prevent the "deskilling vortex."

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

  • 00:10:02 – The Thesis of Enactivism: An introduction to Christian Moore's work and how enactivism bridges the gap between progressive discovery and traditionalist instruction.
  • 00:13:12 – The Three Stances: Moore defines the framework of "Teaching To," "Exploring With," and "Teaching With."
  • 00:17:01 – The Critique of "Just Tell Them": Why the "science of learning" advocacy can lead to a culture of achievement that prioritizes performance over authentic understanding.
  • 00:36:38 – Meaning as an Enacted Process: Why teaching is a biological and relational process, not a data transmission problem.
  • 00:45:41 – Planning for Key Distinctions: Practical strategies for lesson planning that center on distinguishing concepts rather than flat delivery of content.
  • 01:10:45 – Premeditated vs. Relational Teaching: The danger of "atomized" lessons and why real-time, feedback-driven teaching is essential for cognitive development.
  • 01:23:03 – Combating the "Deskilling Vortex": A critical look at how scripted curricula and high-stakes inspection cultures impact teacher retention and professional growth.

Hosted by ThoughtStretchers Education, The ThoughtStretchers Podcast is built on the belief that the best teaching emerges from genuine dialogue and challenging questions. This isn't about quick tips or superficial trends. Instead, each episode engages in the kind of dialectic conversations that push beyond comfortable assumptions, examining the foundational ideas and complex issues that shape modern learning environments. You'll hear deep, often meandering discussions that probe the "why" behind educational practices, fostering a space for intellectual rigor rarely found in typical professional development. Tuning into this podcast feels like sitting in on a thoughtful, sometimes provocative, roundtable where curiosity is the primary curriculum. It’s for educators who find energy in debate and refinement of thought, who believe that strengthening their own intellectual framework is the first step toward nurturing it in others. The dialogue here is designed to stretch your perspective on pedagogy, curriculum, and the very purpose of education, making it a sustained exercise in professional growth. If you’re looking to engage with education on a more philosophical and principled level, these conversations offer a compelling and substantive resource.
Author: Language: en-us Episodes: 50

The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
Podcast Episodes
Beyond Explicit Instruction, The Importance of Elaboration [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 59:52
Drew Perkins welcomes education writer and author Natalie Wexler to the podcast to discuss her latest work and the evolving conversation around explicit instruction and the "Science of Reading." While the movement has su…
Why Classroom Technology Harms Learning (with Jared Cooney Horvath) [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 49:23
Drew Perkins welcomes neuroscientist and acclaimed author Jared Cooney Horvath to dissect his new book, The Digital Delusion, which provides a rigorous, evidence-based critique of edtech. Links & Resources Mentioned In T…
How Free Speech Builds a Better Brain With Barbara Oakley [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 56:26
In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers podcast, host Drew Perkins talks with Dr. Barbara Oakley, distinguished professor of engineering and co-instructor of the celebrated Learning How to Learn course, to discuss her c…
Knowledge-Rich Inquiry With 4QM Teaching [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:10:13
Drew Perkins welcomes Gary Schiffman and Jon Bassett of 4QM Teaching to the podcast to discuss their new US History curriculum and the principles behind their innovative Four Question Method. Links & Resources Mentioned…
Memorizing History Facts, So What? [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:30:07
Is the core of teaching history about memorizing history facts, or is it about critical thinking? And what is the role of knowledge-rich inquiry in the history classroom? Drew Perkins is joined by history educators Laure…
Are Leveled Readers Hurting Student Growth? [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:11:10
Drew Perkins is joined by guest co-host, fourth-grade teacher Melinda Karshner, for a critical conversation with Timothy Shanahan, Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the University of Illinois at Chicago and former Dire…
Change Starts Here with Shane Leaning [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:11:26
Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning about his new book, Change Starts Here: What If Everything Your School Needed Was Right in Front of You? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube
Digital Literacy, Civics, And Surveillance [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:00:59
Drew Perkins talks with Heidi Boghosian about her book, Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
A Critical Look at Educational Research [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:23:46
Drew Perkins talks with George Lilley, a veteran teacher from Australia, about his critiques of the work of John Hattie, and the Science of Learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
NASSP Leadership, Policy, And Student Well-Being [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:13:44
Drew Perkins talks with return guest, Ronn Nozoe, CEO of the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP). Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode