A certain weakness in us: Destructive followership, obedience and authority

A certain weakness in us: Destructive followership, obedience and authority

Author: Charts & Leisure July 30, 2025 Duration: 51:03

In today’s episode of Unravelling, host Kurt White sits down with Alette Smeulers, Professor of Criminal Law, Criminology, and International Crimes at the University of Groningen in The Netherlands.  Professor Smeulers has spent decades trying to answer the question: What is it that makes people perpetrators of mass atrocities, and why do people follow such leaders?  Together, they unravel the specifics of the Milgram Experiment, the mental health implications thereof, and what we can learn about ourselves from that field of work and research.

Alette is the author of the book “Perpetrators of Mass Atrocities: Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?” (Routledge, 2024), as well as the co-host of a podcast by the same title.  She believes that if we understand the true nature and causes of violence and mass atrocities, and understand who the perpetrators are, and why they commit such crimes, we may be in a much better position to prevent such horrific things from happening.

First They Came
Pastor Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Website

https://alettesmeulers.org/en/home/

Book:

https://www.routledge.com/Perpetrators-of-Mass-Atrocities-Terribly-and-Terrifyingly-Normal/Smeulers/p/book/9781032568027?srsltid=AfmBOorPR1Ke5X_-mx2P8s8rOqQM19OAGa1xqF8phur7TR3W-bRRlCbW

Podcast:

https://www.rug.nl/rechten/actueel/in-de-media/podcasts/terribly-and-terrifyingly-normal/?lang=en

https://open.spotify.com/show/2Bt5Wg5nbekeSo8UBDI5MY

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/terribly-and-terrifyingly-normal/id1708596464


There’s a thread that connects our inner lives to the culture we live in, and Unravelling pulls on it to see what emerges. This isn’t a lecture series, but a conversation guided by therapist Kurt White and journalist Mary Wilson, who bring their distinct perspectives to every discussion. They explore how mental health is woven into everything from our daily fitness routines and societal pressures to the art we consume and the relationships we keep. In each episode, you’ll hear from experts who study the mind alongside individuals sharing their personal, lived experiences, creating a dialogue that feels both intellectually rigorous and deeply human. The aim is to move beyond simple definitions, examining how anxiety, resilience, joy, and struggle shape our collective reality. Produced by Charts & Leisure, this podcast provides a space for nuance, challenging the idea that our psychological worlds exist in a vacuum. It’s for anyone who has ever felt the tension between their private thoughts and the public world, offering not easy answers but a more textured understanding. By listening, you become part of a broader exploration into how compassion, for ourselves and our society, can actually be built from a place of genuine curiosity.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 50

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Hosted by Kurt White and Mary Wilson, Unravelling is a podcast that looks at the world through the lens of mental health.