#131 - Designing Beyond the Product: Systems Thinking with Sheryl Cababa, Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial

#131 - Designing Beyond the Product: Systems Thinking with Sheryl Cababa, Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial

Author: User Interviews July 19, 2023 Duration: 48:24

In design and UX research, context is king. 

Your work doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s a part of a wider ecosystem of stakeholders, beneficiaries, and more.

Sheryl Cababa, Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial, recognized a clear gap in design methods that only addressed the individual user and the immediate product benefits: designing beyond the product with a systems thinking approach. As the author of Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers, Sheryl says, 

“My goal is not to suddenly become a systems thinking methodology practitioner and leave my job as a designer behind. I need to figure out a way to integrate [systems thinking] into my practice in a way that is actionable and accessible.”

She joins Erin and JH today to discuss how systems thinking can address the complexities and interconnectedness of products and their ecosystems, sharing practical strategies for integrating it into your own design practice. 

Tune into this episode to learn actionable advice on adopting a systems thinking mindset when designing user experiences 👇

Highlights: 

[00:01:18] The appeal of systems thinking

[00:08:45] Ethnography as a bridge between traditional UX methods and systems thinking

[00:14:29] Understanding when a problem calls for systems thinking versus when it does not

[00:22:37] Avoiding “chaos” when integrating systems thinking

[00:28:04] Systems thinking as a mindset rather than a set of tools

[00:31:30] Recognizing when methods are producing valuable results

[00:36:17] Utilizing systems thinking for speculative design

[00:41:34] The importance of multi-disciplinary groups in systems thinking


Sources mentioned in the episode:

Want a copy of Sheryl Cababa's book?

Use discount code: [cababa-awkwardsilences] for 15% off your purchase of Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers at https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/systems-thinking-for-designers/.

About Our Guest

Sheryl Cababa, Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial and Author of “Closing the Loop - Systems Thinking for Designers,” is a multi-disciplinary director with over two decades of experience in product design and consultancy, mainly focusing  on systems thinking and evidence-based design. Her current role at Substantial, a design and software development consultancy, involves conducting research, developing design strategies, and advocating for human-centric outcomes. In her book, “Closing the Loop - Systems Thinking for Designers,” Sheryl introduces readers to a powerful systems thinking mindset.


Awkward Silences is a conversation about the human side of building things. Hosts Erin May and Carol Guest, both VPs at User Interviews, don't just talk about theory-they get into the messy, real-world practice of talking to users and making sense of what they say. Each episode pulls back the curtain on the craft of user research, featuring candid chats with the practitioners who do this work every day. You'll hear stories about navigating tricky interviews, the weight of interpreting qualitative data, and how genuine understanding directly shapes better products and smarter business decisions. This isn't a dry lecture; it's a geeky, relatable dive into the questions and quiet moments that define UX research. The Awkward Silences podcast lives in the intersection of technology and business, focusing on the people and processes that connect them. Listen for practical insights, empathetic strategies, and the occasional shared laugh about the inevitable fumbles that come with trying to understand anyone. It’s for anyone who believes that building effectively starts with listening well.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

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