Howl, grunt, sing

Howl, grunt, sing

Author: Kensy Cooperrider – Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute March 6, 2025 Duration: 1:13:38

The tree of life is a noisy place. From one branch come hoots and howls, from another come clicks and buzzes and whines. And coming from all over you hear the swell of song. But what is all this ruckus about? Why do so many animals communicate with sound? What kinds of meaning do these sounds convey? And—beyond the case of human speech—do any of these sounds merit the label of "language"?

My guest today is Dr. Arik Kershenbaum, a zoologist at Cambridge University. Arik is an expert on vocal communication across the animal kingdom and the author of the recent book Why animals talk: The new science of animal communication.

Here, Arik and I talk about why the acoustic medium is a popular choice for complex communication. We sketch a key difference between forms of communication that are purely expressive and forms that are also referential. We discuss, in turn, Arik's field research on wolves, hyraxes, and gibbons—and talk about what makes each of these animals such a revealing case study. We evaluate our prospects for quote unquote "translating" different kinds of animal communication, and we speculate about what communication systems could look like on other planets. Along the way, Arik and I touch on: noisy versus tonal sounds; short-range versus long-range communication; chorusing and duetting; simplicity and complexity; syntax and meaning; entropy; alarm calls; dolphins, orcas, and cuttlefish; and how you can tell that wolves take a certain pleasure in howling.

Without further ado, here's my chat with Dr. Arik Kershenbaum.

 

A transcript of this episode is available here

 

Notes and links

6:30 – In the human case, of course, our most elaborated form of communication—language—comes in both spoken and signed forms. For more on the different modalities of human language, see, e.g., our earlier episode with Dr. Neil Cohn.

7:30 – The distinction between expressive and referential communication is perhaps most strongly associated with the linguist Roman Jakobson—see, for instance, this essay. For more on the question of whether animal communication systems involve reference, see this recent (philosophical) discussion.

9:00 – For a classic example of work on predator alarm calls in vervet monkeys, see here. 

13:00 – For an example of Dr. Kershenbaum's work on wolf (and other canid) howls, see here. The study provides evidence for howling "dialects." 

24:30 – An example of coyote chorusing can be heard here.

27:00 – A study showing that human listeners overestimate the size of a coyote group.

29:00 – For an example of Dr. Kershenbaum's work on hyrax song, see here. An example of hyrax song can be heard here. 

34:00 – For a primer on syntax in animal acoustic communication, see here. 

40:00 – Examples of gibbon song can be heard here and here. 

45:00 – For a paper on the syntax and complexity of gibbon songs, see here. 

48:30 – A paper by Dr. Kershenbaum and colleagues on entropy and Zipf's law in animal communication. 

57:30 – A paper on Darwin's theory of "musical protolanguage."

59:30 – An example of research on orca communication. 

1:00:00 – For more about Project CETI, see here. 

1:07:00 – See Dr. Kershenbaum's other book, The Zoologist's Guide to the Galaxy. 

 

Recommendations

The Reign of Wolf 21, by Rick McIntyre

Through a window, by Jane Goodall

 

Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala.

Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here!

We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. 

For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Twitter (@ManyMindsPod) or Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).


There's a quiet revolution happening in how we understand intelligence, and it's not just about humans. Many Minds, hosted by Kensy Cooperrider of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, digs into this expansive idea. Each episode is a journey into the inner worlds of creatures and creations we share the planet with. You'll hear from researchers who decode the complex social minds of crows, who map the sensory universe of an octopus, or who grapple with the emerging cognition of artificial systems. This isn't a dry lecture series; it's a collection of thoughtful conversations that feel like pulling up a chair with experts who are genuinely redefining what it means to think, feel, and learn. The Many Minds podcast operates from a simple but profound premise: to grasp our own human experience, we need to listen to the many other kinds of minds around us. Tune in every other week for explorations that are as much about philosophy and wonder as they are about science and education, all grounded in rigorous research and a deep curiosity about the beings-animal, human, and artificial-that fill our world.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

Many Minds
Podcast Episodes
The shaman with a thousand faces [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:18:16
When you hear the word "shaman," I'm guessing a web of associations starts to form in your mind. Perhaps you imagine strange ceremonies and strong substances; maybe you think of an earlier time when magic and superstitio…
Varieties of childhood [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:28:48
Childhood is a special time, a strange time. Children are adored and catered to—they're given their own menus and bedrooms. They're considered delicate and precious, and so we cushion them from every imaginable risk. Kid…
Science, AI, and illusions of understanding [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 59:47
AI will fundamentally transform science. It will supercharge the research process, making it faster and more efficient and broader in scope. It will make scientists themselves vastly more productive, more objective, mayb…
The primeval soil of play [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 56:37
Puppies wrestling and mock-biting each other. Toddlers playing hide and seek. Kittens pouncing—repeatedly—on a toy mouse. You've no doubt looked on at scenes like this with amusement. And you've no doubt seen some of tho…
The big five and beyond [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:46:39
If you've heard anything about the study of human personality, you've probably heard about the "big five." This is a framework that attempts to characterize human personality in terms of five broad factors or dimensions—…
Philosophers on psychedelics [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:40:49
Some call it the "psychedelic renaissance." In the last decade or so, interest in psychedelic drugs has surged—and not just among Silicon Valley types and psychiatrists and neuroscientists. It's also surged among a stere…
The cuttlefish and its coat of many colors [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:33:38
We humans have a hard time becoming invisible. For better or worse, we're basically stuck with the skin and body we have; we're pretty fixed in our color, our shape, our overall appearance. And so we're fascinated by cre…
Life, free energy, and the pursuit of goals [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:06:49
You've probably come across the "free energy principle." It's become one of the most influential ideas in the broader cognitive sciences. Since the neuroscientist Karl Friston first introduced it in 2005, the theory has…
Universal emotions in fact and fiction [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:20:22
Are human emotions universal? Or do they vary from one place to the next and from one time period to the next? It's a big question, an old question. And every discipline that's grappled with it brings its own take, its o…
From the archive: Fermentation, fire, and our big brains [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:05:36
Hi friends, We're taking care of some spring cleaning this week. We'll be back in two weeks with a new episode. In the meantime, enjoy this favorite from our archives! - The Many Minds team ––––––––– [originally aired Fe…