Of breeds and brains

Of breeds and brains

Author: Kensy Cooperrider – Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute November 6, 2025 Duration: 1:07:44

It's hard to say exactly when, but some tens of thousands of years ago, our best friends were born. I'm referring, of course, to dogs. This didn't happen overnight—it was a long process. And it not only changed how those canids behaved and what they looked like, it also changed their brains. As wolves gave way to proto-dogs, and proto-dogs gave way to dingoes and dalmatians and Dobermanns and all the rest, their brains have continued to change. What can we learn from this singular saga? What does it tell us about dogs, about domestication, and about brains? 

My guest today is Dr. Erin Hecht. Erin is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard, where she directs the Canine Brains Project 

Here Erin and I talk about how dogs are the most anatomically diverse species on the planet—and how their brains are no exception. We sketch the different waves in the dog domestication saga and discuss scenarios for how that saga got underway. We talk about how brains change as they get bigger and about how they change during domestication. We discuss a recent study by Erin and colleagues comparing the brains of modern dogs with the brains of pre-modern dogs like village dogs and New Guinea singing dogs. We also talk about a new study from Erin's lab finding that domestic dogs share with humans a key language-related structure. Along the way we talk about the Russian Farm Fox experiment, the stereotype of the gentle giant, the left lateralization of language, the respiratory condition known as BOAS, the dog personality inventory known as C-BARQ, the limitations of the idea of a "domestication syndrome," and the puppy kidnapping hypothesis.  

Longtime listeners will recall that we had Erin on the show to talk about her work on fermentation and brain evolution. Given how much fun we had with that one, it was only a matter of time before we had her back to talk about her main line of research on dog brains. So here you go friends—hope you enjoy it!

 

 Notes

4:30 – For one recent study of the early domestication of dogs, see here. For a review of leading hypotheses about what drove the wolf-to-dog transition, see here.  

13:00 – For Dr. Hecht's initial 2019 study of brain variation across domestic dog breeds, see here.

20:00 – For a classic paper on the neurodevelopmental scaling by Dr. Barbara Finlay and colleagues, see here.

23:00 – For more of Dr. Hecht's work on neurodevelopmental scaling laws as they apply to dogs, see here. For a study reporting correlations between body size and personality in dogs, see here 

29:00 – See Dr. Hecht and colleagues' recent paper on the evolutionary neuroscience of domestication.

31:00 – See Dr. Hecht and colleagues' recent paper on brain changes seen in the Russian farm-fox experiment.

37:00 – For more on the idea of "domestication syndrome," see our recent episode with Dr. Kevin Lala and this critical discussion. For a classic treatment of the idea that domestication involves reduction in brain size, see here.

41:00 – For the recent study by Dr. Hecht and colleagues comparing the brains of modern and pre-modern dog breeds, see here.

43:00 – For video of a New Guinea Singing Dog singing, see here.

47:00 – For more about the dog personality inventory known as the C-BARQ, see here

51:00 – For Dr. Hecht and colleagues' recent study on an analog to the "arcuate fasciculus" in dogs, see here.

58:00 – For Dr. Hecht and colleagues' study on arcuate fasciculus in chimpanzees (and its relationship to communicative behavior), see here. For more discussion of the hemispheric lateralization of language, see our recent interview with Dr. Ev Federenko.

1:04:00 – The website of the Functional Dog Collaborative.

 

Recommendations

Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution, Raymond & Lorna Coppinger

Evolving Brains, John Allman


There's a quiet revolution happening in how we understand intelligence, and it's not just about humans. Many Minds, hosted by Kensy Cooperrider of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, digs into this expansive idea. Each episode is a journey into the inner worlds of creatures and creations we share the planet with. You'll hear from researchers who decode the complex social minds of crows, who map the sensory universe of an octopus, or who grapple with the emerging cognition of artificial systems. This isn't a dry lecture series; it's a collection of thoughtful conversations that feel like pulling up a chair with experts who are genuinely redefining what it means to think, feel, and learn. The Many Minds podcast operates from a simple but profound premise: to grasp our own human experience, we need to listen to the many other kinds of minds around us. Tune in every other week for explorations that are as much about philosophy and wonder as they are about science and education, all grounded in rigorous research and a deep curiosity about the beings-animal, human, and artificial-that fill our world.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

Many Minds
Podcast Episodes
The five portals of cognitive evolution [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:04:48
Welcome back all! So, this episode is a first for us. Two firsts, actually. For one, it features our first-ever repeat guest: Andrew Barron, a neuroscientist at Macquarie University. If you're a long-time listener, you m…
Matrescence and the brain [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:18:58
Scientists who study the mind and brain have always been drawn to periods of intense change—to those life stages marked by rapid transformation. Infancy is one of those periods, of course. Adolescence is another. But the…
From the archive: Bat signals [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:19:15
We're still on summer break, but we wanted to share a favorite interview from our archives. Enjoy! ---- We've got something special for you today folks: bats. That's right: bats. Ever since Thomas Nagel wrote his famous…
From the archive: The eye's mind [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 13:51
We're taking a little summer break right now, but we wanted to share a favorite essay from our archives. Enjoy! --- Welcome back folks! Today, we've got an audio essay for you. I won't say too too much—don't want to spoi…
The octopus and the android [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:25:39
Have you heard of Octopolis? It's a site off the coast of Australia where octopuses come together. It's been described as a kind of underwater "settlement" or "city." Now, smart as octopuses are, they are not really know…
Revisiting the dawn of human cognition [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 56:06
There's a common story about the human past that goes something like this. For a few hundred thousand years during the Stone Age we were kind of limping along as a species, in a bit of a cognitive rut, let's say. But the…
Medieval monks on memory, meditation, and mind-wandering [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:02:10
You know the feeling. You're trying to read or write or think through a project, maybe even just respond to an email, when your attention starts to drift. You may not even notice it until you've already picked up your ph…
Species of conversation [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 2:01:56
We humans are social animals—and that takes work. As we move through the world, we have to navigate around other people's desires, needs, and beliefs. Much of this work happens in conversation—through our words, our glan…
Minding plants [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:13:11
Let's start with a little riddle: What kind of organism has no eyes, no mouth, and no brain, but—arguably—has a mind? Most of the work on non-human minds has, naturally, focused on animals—apes, dogs, whales, bats. Some…
From the archive: Animal minds and animal morality [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:34:16
Taking care of some spring cleaning this week, but we're excited to resurface this conversation with Kristin Andrews and Susana Monsó. We'll be back with a fresh episode in two weeks. In the meanwhile, enjoy! - The Many…