Judy Fan: Reverse Engineering the Human Cognitive Toolkit

Judy Fan: Reverse Engineering the Human Cognitive Toolkit

Author: Daniel Bashir August 22, 2024 Duration: 1:32:39

Episode 136

I spoke with Judy Fan about:

* Our use of physical artifacts for sensemaking

* Why cognitive tools can be a double-edged sword

* Her approach to scientific inquiry and how that approach has developed

Enjoy—and let me know what you think!

Judy is Assistant Professor of Psychology at Stanford and director of the Cognitive Tools Lab. Her lab employs converging approaches from cognitive science, computational neuroscience, and artificial intelligence to reverse engineer the human cognitive toolkit, especially how people use physical representations of thought — such as sketches and prototypes — to learn, communicate, and solve problems.

Find me on Twitter for updates on new episodes, and reach me at editor@thegradient.pub for feedback, ideas, guest suggestions.

I spend a lot of time on this podcast—if you like my work, you can support me on Patreon :) You can also support upkeep for the full Gradient team/project through a paid subscription on Substack!

Subscribe to The Gradient Podcast:  Apple Podcasts  | Spotify | Pocket Casts | RSSFollow The Gradient on Twitter

Outline:

* (00:00) Intro

* (00:49) Throughlines and discontinuities in Judy’s research

* (06:26) “Meaning” in Judy’s research

* (08:05) Production and consumption of artifacts

* (13:03) Explanatory questions, why we develop visual artifacts, science as a social enterprise

* (15:46) Unifying principles

* (17:45) “Hard limits” to knowledge and optimism

* (21:47) Tensions in different fields’ forms of sensemaking and establishing truth claims

* (30:55) Dichotomies and carving up the space of possible hypotheses, conceptual tools

* (33:22) Cognitive tools and projectivism, simplified models vs. nature

* (40:28) Scientific training and science as process and habit

* (45:51) Developing mental clarity about hypotheses

* (51:45) Clarifying and expressing ideas

* (1:03:21) Cognitive tools as double-edged

* (1:14:21) Historical and social embeddedness of tools

* (1:18:34) How cognitive tools impact our imagination

* (1:23:30) Normative commitments and the role of cognitive science outside the academy

* (1:32:31) Outro

Links:

* Judy’s Twitter and lab page

* Selected papers (there are lots!)

* Overviews

* Drawing as a versatile cognitive tool (2023)

* Using games to understand the mind (2024)

* Socially intelligent machines that learn from humans and help humans learn (2024)

* Research papers 

* Communicating design intent using drawing and text (2024)

* Creating ad hoc graphical representations of number (2024)

* Visual resemblance and interaction history jointly constrain pictorial meaning (2023)

* Explanatory drawings prioritize functional properties at the expense of visual fidelity (2023)

* SEVA: Leveraging sketches to evaluate alignment between human and machine visual abstraction (2023)

* Parallel developmental changes in children’s production and recognition of line drawings of visual concepts (2023)

* Learning to communicate about shared procedural abstractions (2021)

* Visual communication of object concepts at different levels of abstraction (2021)

* Relating visual production and recognition of objects in the human visual cortex (2020)

* Collabdraw: an environment for collaborative sketching with an artificial agent (2019)

* Pragmatic inference and visual abstraction enable contextual flexibility in visual communication (2019)

* Common object representations for visual production and recognition (2018)



Get full access to The Gradient at thegradientpub.substack.com/subscribe

Hosted by Daniel Bashir, The Gradient: Perspectives on AI moves beyond surface-level headlines to explore the intricate machinery and human ideas shaping artificial intelligence. Each episode is built on a foundation of deep research, leading to conversations that are both technically substantive and broadly accessible. You'll hear from researchers, engineers, and philosophers who are actively building and critiquing our technological future, discussing not just how AI systems work, but the larger implications of their integration into society. This isn't about speculative hype; it's a grounded examination of real progress, persistent challenges, and ethical considerations from those on the front lines. The discussions peel back layers on topics like model architecture, policy, and the fundamental science behind the algorithms becoming part of our daily lives. For anyone curious about the substance behind the buzz-whether you have a technical background or are simply keen to understand a defining technology of our age-this podcast offers a crucial and thoughtful resource. Tune in for a consistently detailed and nuanced take that treats artificial intelligence with the complexity it deserves.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

The Gradient: Perspectives on AI
Podcast Episodes
2025 in AI, with Nathan Benaich [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:01:15
Episode 144Happy New Year! This is one of my favorite episodes of the year — for the fourth time, Nathan Benaich and I did our yearly roundup of AI news and advancements, including selections from this year’s State of AI…
Iason Gabriel: Value Alignment and the Ethics of Advanced AI Systems [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 58:39
Episode 143I spoke with Iason Gabriel about:* Value alignment* Technology and worldmaking* How AI systems affect individuals and the social worldIason is a philosopher and Senior Staff Research Scientist at Google DeepMi…
2024 in AI, with Nathan Benaich [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:48:43
Episode 142Happy holidays! This is one of my favorite episodes of the year — for the third time, Nathan Benaich and I did our yearly roundup of all the AI news and advancements you need to know. This includes selections…
Philip Goff: Panpsychism as a Theory of Consciousness [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:00:04
Episode 141I spoke with Professor Philip Goff about:* What a “post-Galilean” science of consciousness looks like* How panpsychism helps explain consciousness and the hybrid cosmopsychist viewEnjoy!Philip Goff is a Britis…
Some Changes at The Gradient [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 34:25
Hi everyone!If you’re a new subscriber or listener, welcome. If you’re not new, you’ve probably noticed that things have slowed down from us a bit recently. Hugh Zhang, Andrey Kurenkov and I sat down to recap some of The…
Jacob Andreas: Language, Grounding, and World Models [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:52:43
Episode 140I spoke with Professor Jacob Andreas about:* Language and the world* World models* How he’s developed as a scientistEnjoy!Jacob is an associate professor at MIT in the Department of Electrical Engineering and…
Evan Ratliff: Our Future with Voice Agents [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:19:59
Episode 139I spoke with Evan Ratliff about:* Shell Game, Evan’s new podcast, where he creates an AI voice clone of himself and sets it loose. * The end of the Longform Podcast and his thoughts on the state of journalism.…
Meredith Ringel Morris: Generative AI's HCI Moment [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:37:45
Episode 138I spoke with Meredith Morris about:* The intersection of AI and HCI and why we need more cross-pollination between AI and adjacent fields* Disability studies and AI* Generative ghosts and technological determi…
Davidad Dalrymple: Towards Provably Safe AI [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:20:50
Episode 137I spoke with Davidad Dalrymple about:* His perspectives on AI risk* ARIA (the UK’s Advanced Research and Invention Agency) and its Safeguarded AI ProgrammeEnjoy—and let me know what you think!Davidad is a Prog…
Clive Thompson: Tales of Technology [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 2:27:35
Episode 136I spoke with Clive Thompson about:* How he writes* Writing about the climate and biking across the US* Technology culture and persistent debates in AI* PoetryEnjoy—and let me know what you think!Clive is a jou…