Made to Want to Change: Conversion Practices

Made to Want to Change: Conversion Practices

Author: Charts & Leisure June 3, 2026 Duration: 47:42

In the first episode of Unravelling’s three-part Pride Month series, Mary and Kurt examine the realities of so-called conversion "therapy," which many survivors, advocates, and researchers more accurately describe as conversion practices. These are not legitimate therapeutic interventions, but harmful efforts designed to change, suppress, or deny a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity.
Mary speaks with Dr. Lucas Wilson, an interdisciplinary scholar of history, religion, gender, and sexuality at the University of Toronto Mississauga and editor of Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivor Stories of Conversion Therapy. Drawing on both his academic research and personal experience, Dr. Wilson explores the many forms conversion practices can take, from church-led programs and family interventions to efforts carried out by licensed professionals. He shares his own story of seeking conversion therapy while attending Liberty University, driven by evangelical teachings that framed queerness as something that needed to be corrected.
He describes the lasting psychological and spiritual consequences of these experiences, including the shift from feeling guilt about specific actions to developing deep shame and self-hatred. He emphasizes that conversion practices remain an ongoing reality today, including at institutions he once attended, and connects contemporary anti-LGBTQ+ movements to longer histories of scapegoating and authoritarian ideology.
Dr. Wilson calls on communities, allies, educators, and faith leaders to remain vocal in opposing these practices and supporting those who have been affected by them.


Links:

Resources: Born Perfect, The Trevor Project

Buy the book: Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors’ Stories of Conversion Therapy

More about Dr. Lucas Wilson


There’s a thread that connects our inner lives to the culture we live in, and Unravelling pulls on it to see what emerges. This isn’t a lecture series, but a conversation guided by therapist Kurt White and journalist Mary Wilson, who bring their distinct perspectives to every discussion. They explore how mental health is woven into everything from our daily fitness routines and societal pressures to the art we consume and the relationships we keep. In each episode, you’ll hear from experts who study the mind alongside individuals sharing their personal, lived experiences, creating a dialogue that feels both intellectually rigorous and deeply human. The aim is to move beyond simple definitions, examining how anxiety, resilience, joy, and struggle shape our collective reality. Produced by Charts & Leisure, this podcast provides a space for nuance, challenging the idea that our psychological worlds exist in a vacuum. It’s for anyone who has ever felt the tension between their private thoughts and the public world, offering not easy answers but a more textured understanding. By listening, you become part of a broader exploration into how compassion, for ourselves and our society, can actually be built from a place of genuine curiosity.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 50

Unravelling
Podcast Episodes
What the circus can teach us about mental health [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 30:34
In this episode of Unravelling, we’re talking about circus arts and mental health with two people behind A Little Unwell, a circus variety show coming to Brattleboro, VT, this October through a partnership between the Br…
Releasing with joy: Inside hoarding recovery [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 42:04
In this episode of Unravelling explores hoarding disorder through the lived experience of Marnie Cooper, an acting teacher, coach, wife, and mother who has openly shared her journey through her online project, A Hoarder…
It’s not about clutter: Why we misunderstand hoarding [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 50:07
In this episode of Unravelling, Kurt interviews renowned psychologist Dr. Randy O. Frost, a pioneering researcher in hoarding disorder, who explains what clinically significant hoarding looks like and why it’s about far…
Extension of your mind: Navigating complexity beyond the individual [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 50:21
In this episode of Unravelling, Kurt White sits down with psychiatrist and bioethicist Dr. Anthony Peter Weiss, Chief Medical Officer at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and an Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Ha…
Who deserves to exist?: The dark history of eugenics [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 41:44
In this episode of Unravelling, Kurt White interviews Mercedes de Guardiola, historian and author of "Vermont for the Vermonters": The History of Eugenics in the Green Mountain State, to examine the history of eugenics a…
The ethics of ought (not) to: Conversion practices [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 42:21
Special day early episode drop for this, our third episode of our Pride Month series on conversion practices, we welcome Dr. Gerald (Jerry) Davison, a pioneering psychologist whose work helped change the mental health fi…
The burden compounds: Conversion practices [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 42:41
The second episode of Unravelling’s Pride Month series examines the hidden human and economic costs of so-called conversion therapy. Kurt speaks with health economist and professor Ben Harrell, Ph.D., of Trinity Universi…
Unravelling Adventure!: Conclusion/Part 2 [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:04:08
Herein we present the exciting conclusion of our three episode series all about the world of Table Top Role Playing Group Therapy (Collaborative Role-playing Integrative Therapy) using the world of Dungeons & Dragons.Wil…
Unravelling Adventure!: Real Play D&D/CRIT Demo (Pt 1) [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 58:11
In this very special episode of Unravellling, hosts Kurt and Mary step into the world of Table Top Role Playing Group Therapy (Collaborative Role-playing Integrative Therapy) using the world of Dungeons & Dragons, they e…
We make the story together: Collaborative role-play groups [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 42:25
Can a game of Dungeons & Dragons become a powerful tool for therapy?In this episode of Unravelling, Mary and Kurt explore how tabletop role-playing games are being used in group psychotherapy to help people experiment wi…