Is Attending to Clinician Distress Our Job? Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly

Is Attending to Clinician Distress Our Job? Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly

Author: Alex Smith, Eric Widera December 18, 2025 Duration: 49:02

Have you had one of those consults in which you're thinking, huh, sounds like the patient's goals are clear, it's really that the clinician consulting us disagrees with those goals?  To what extent is it our job as consultants to navigate, manage, or attend to clinician distress?  What happens when that clinician distress leads eventually to conflict between the consulting clinician and the palliative care team?

Today our guests Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly discuss these issues, including:

  • A recent paper first authored by Yael asking if attending to clinician distress is our job, published in JPSM. See also the wonderful conversation in the response letters from multidisciplinary providers (e.g. of course  that's our job! And physicians may not be trained in therapy, but many social workers and chaplains are, and certainly psychologists).

  • A SPACE pneumonic for addressing clinician conflict developed by Sara Johnson, Anne Kelly and others. They presented this at a recent AAHPM/HPNA meeting. See below for what SPACE stands for.

  • We referenced a prior episode on therapeutic presence and creating a holding space with Kerri Brenner and Dani Chammas, and this article by Kerri

  • We talked about the role of the consultant, including this classic paper on consultation etiquette by Diane Meier and Larry Beresford.

Enjoy!

-Alex Smith

 

SPACE: Navigating Conflict with Colleagues

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response."   -Viktor E. Frankl

SPACE: Conflict Navigation Toolkit

  • Self-awareness: Pause & Notice Before Responding
  • What am I feeling?  Take own temperature.
  • Where am I coming from?  What do I need?
  • Perspective-Taking: Ask-Tell-Ask
  • Where are they coming from? Check your understanding with them.
  • "Tell me how you're thinking about this?"
  • "I hear you are concerned about…is that right?"
  • Agenda: Yours and theirs, then focus on common ground
  • Where are we going together?
  • "It seems like we both want…"
  • Curiosity: Reframe and explore to understand
  • Am I missing anything?
  • Why is this kind, smart & hard-working colleague thinking differently than I am?
  • "To help me better understand, what is your biggest concern about…?"
  •  Empathy:
  • For others: Empathic statements around the situation & silence
  • For self: Your feelings are valid, reflect on it later. 
  • You will misstep in tense moments: apologize, learn from it. Eating helps.


Authors: 

Ethan Silverman MD
University of Pittsburgh

Anne Kelly LCSW
San Francisco VA Health Care System

Jasmine Hudnall DO
Gundersen Health System

Cassie Shumway MS, RN, OCN, CHPN
UW Health Hospitals & Clinics

Andrew O'Donnell RN
University of Wisconsin

Sara K. Johnson MD
University of Wisconsin

 


Hosted by UCSF physicians Alex Smith and Eric Widera, GeriPal-A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast creates a vital space for conversation at the intersection of aging and serious illness care. This isn't a dry lecture series; it's a dynamic dialogue where Eric and Alex bring on leading experts to unpack the complexities of geriatric and palliative medicine. They delve into the latest research that should change practice, tackle the ethical dilemmas that provoke debate, and explore the nuanced clinical challenges that professionals face daily. The tone is engaging and often surprisingly lighthearted, with moments of humor and even the occasional song, making profound topics more accessible. Whether you're a clinician, nurse, social worker, or any professional dedicated to this field, this podcast offers a blend of evidence-based insights and practical wisdom you can use. It’s a resource that acknowledges the weight of the work while fostering connection and continued learning. For those seeking formal education credits, AMA PRA Category 1 CME and MOC credit are also available through the show. Tune in to join a community committed to improving care for older adults and those with serious illness.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
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