The primeval soil of play

The primeval soil of play

Author: Kensy Cooperrider – Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute June 13, 2025 Duration: 56:37

Puppies wrestling and mock-biting each other. Toddlers playing hide and seek. Kittens pouncing—repeatedly—on a toy mouse. You've no doubt looked on at scenes like this with amusement. And you've no doubt seen some of those viral videos—of ravens sledding down hills, of bumble bees playing with balls. All these moments make us smile, maybe even giggle. But the scientific questions they raise merit serious attention. Where do we see play in the animal kingdom? Where do we not? What functions does play serve? Do we—and many other creatures—have an elemental need for play?

My guest today is Dr. Gordon Burghardt. Gordon is a longtime Professor in the Department of Psychology and the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Tennessee. For decades now, Gordon has been a pioneer in the study of animal play, with a particular focus on play in reptiles and other animals not usually considered playful. His 2005 book, The Genesis of Animal Play, remains a landmark in the field.

Here, Gordon and I talk about the major types of play: locomotor play, object play, and social play. We discuss the five criteria he has proposed for recognizing play across animal taxa. We survey several of the functions of play that have been proposed over the decades, and discuss how—in the end—play doesn't seem to have just one function. We also talk about human play—about what sets it apart, and about the possibility that play lies at the root of many of the capacities and institutions we think of as distinctively, impressively human. Along the way, Gordon and I touch on play in bears, pythons, turtles, fruit flies, and octopuses. We consider play between members of taxonomically distant species. We talk about "self-handicapping"; the surplus resource theory of play; the importance of "risky play" and "free play"; the immersive quality of play; bodily and vocal play signals in mammals; and whether human play is increasingly endangered. 

Without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Gordon Burghardt. Enjoy!

 

A transcript of this episode is available here.

 

Notes and links

3:00 – A news article on the finding of "play-like" behavior in fruit flies. The original study.

4:30 – For recent reviews of play by Dr. Burghardt and colleagues, covering the three major types of play, the five criteria for recognizing play, and many other topics, see here, here, and here.

12:00 – For more on Dr. Burghardt's early research and hand-rearing of black bears, see here.

23:30 – For the recent study on ball play in bumble bees, see here. 

26:00 – For an example of studies examining self-handicapping, see this study on belugas. 

27:00 – For a video of a bull and goat butting heads, see here. For more on cross-species play, see this recent paper by Dr. Burghardt and a colleague.

31:00 – For more on the "relaxed open mouth expression" and "play face," see our previous episode on the origins of the smile.  For a recent study about such expressions possibly attested in dolphins, see here.

44:00 – For the book by Johan Huizinga, see here. For some of Dr. Burghardt's ideas about the connections between play and certain aspects of human culture, see here. 

54:00 – For research on the value of "risky play," see work by Dr. Ellen Sandseter. For an article connecting "free play" and children's mental health, see here.

 

Recommendations

Kingdom of Play, by David Toomey

 

Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala.

Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here!

We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. 

For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Twitter (@ManyMindsPod) or Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).


There's a quiet revolution happening in how we understand intelligence, and it's not just about humans. Many Minds, hosted by Kensy Cooperrider of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, digs into this expansive idea. Each episode is a journey into the inner worlds of creatures and creations we share the planet with. You'll hear from researchers who decode the complex social minds of crows, who map the sensory universe of an octopus, or who grapple with the emerging cognition of artificial systems. This isn't a dry lecture series; it's a collection of thoughtful conversations that feel like pulling up a chair with experts who are genuinely redefining what it means to think, feel, and learn. The Many Minds podcast operates from a simple but profound premise: to grasp our own human experience, we need to listen to the many other kinds of minds around us. Tune in every other week for explorations that are as much about philosophy and wonder as they are about science and education, all grounded in rigorous research and a deep curiosity about the beings-animal, human, and artificial-that fill our world.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 100

Many Minds
Podcast Episodes
Rethinking the "wood wide web" [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:16:43
Forests have always been magical places. But in the last couple decades, they seem to have gotten a little more magical. We've learned that trees are connected to each other through a vast underground network—an internet…
Electric ecology [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:33:10
There's a bit of a buzz out there, right now, but maybe you haven't noticed. It's in the water, it's in the air. It's electricity—and it's all around us, all the time, including in some places you might not have expected…
The nature of nurture [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:16:48
The idea of a "maternal instinct"—the notion that mothers are wired for nurturing and care—is a familiar one in our culture. And it has a flipside, a corollary—what you might call "paternal aloofness." It's the idea that…
The space of (possibly) sentient beings [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:07:17
We may not know what it's like to be a bat, but we're pretty confident that it's like something—that bats (and other mammals) are sentient creatures. They feel pleasure and pain, cold and warmth, agitation and comfort. B…
From the archive: Cities, cells, and the neuroscience of navigation [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:17:38
Hi friends, we're still on a brief summer break. We'll have a new episode for you later in August. In the meanwhile, enjoy this pick from our archives! ---- [originally aired September 21, 2022] If your podcast listening…
From the archive: What does ChatGPT really know? [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 55:10
Hi friends, we're on a brief summer break at the moment. We'll have a new episode for you in August. In the meanwhile, enjoy this pick from our archives! ---- [originally aired January 25, 2023] By now you've probably he…
A new picture of language [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:55:11
If you've taken Linguistics 101, you know what language is. It's a system for conveying meaning through speech. We build words out of sounds, and then complex ideas out of those words. Remarkably, the relationship betwee…
Climate, risk, and the rise of agriculture [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:11:09
It's an enduring puzzle. For hundreds of thousands of years, our ancestors were nomadic, ranging over large territories, hunting and gathering for sustenance. Then, beginning roughly 12,000 years ago, we pivoted. Within…
Consider the spider [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 1:17:45
Maybe your idea of spiders is a bit like mine was. You probably know that they have eight legs, that some are hairy. Perhaps you imagine them spending most of their time sitting in their webs—those classic-looking ones,…