E33: Interview: Jessica Kerr on /Games: Agency as Art/

E33: Interview: Jessica Kerr on /Games: Agency as Art/

Author: Brian Marick June 6, 2023 Duration: 41:16

Jessica Kerr (known to computers everywhere as @jessitron) is a software developer, speaker, and symmathecist. (A symmathesy is a learning system composed of learning parts. To her, each software team is a symmathesy composed of the people on the team, the running software, and all of their tools.) @jessitron is another of those people who apply ideas from outside software to software, including in her role as a developer advocate at Honeycomb, a company that aims to make the workings of software visible to its developers. Were she not engaging, personable, and enthusiastic, she'd be scarily like me. This conversation is about C. Thi Nguyen's book Games: Agency as Art, whose blurb starts, "Games are a unique art form. Game designers don’t just create a world; they create who you will be in that world. They tell you what abilities to use and what goals to take on. In other words, games work in the medium of agency."

Jessitron links

References

In the podcast, I mentioned classic English country gardens. I riffed a bit on Tom Stoppard's play "Arcadia". It "explores the relationship between past and present, order and disorder, certainty and uncertainty. It has been praised by many critics as the finest play from 'one of the most significant contemporary playwrights' in the English language. In 2006, the Royal Institution of Great Britain named it one of the best science-related works ever written." I cut the riff out because – embarrassingly – I couldn't remember the names of either the play or its author. From personal experience, I can recommend this full cast performance for a road trip. On that trip, we also listened to the Alzabo Soup podcast's multi-episode commentary

Photo credit: me


Brian Marick hosts Oddly Influenced, a podcast that digs into the unusual and often overlooked connections between software development and the wider world. Each episode starts with a concept, theory, or practice that originated far from the realm of code-perhaps in sociology, theater, history, or urban planning-and traces its journey into the hands of software practitioners. The focus is on the concrete application: how these borrowed ideas were adapted, what problems they aimed to solve, and what actually happened when people tried them. You’ll hear about the successes, the surprising failures, and the messy, fascinating reality of translating an abstract principle into working practice. This isn’t about generic inspiration or vague parallels; it’s a detailed look at cross-disciplinary pollination, examining the mechanics of how influence actually works. The conversations are grounded and specific, avoiding hype to explore what we can genuinely learn from fields that don’t think in loops and logic. For anyone in technology or education curious about how innovation often comes from the edges, this podcast provides a unique and thoughtful perspective. It’s for listeners who enjoy deep dives into the history and sociology of their craft, who appreciate hearing stories that aren’t the usual case studies, and who are open to having their own thinking oddly influenced by the end of an episode.
Author: Language: English Episodes: 55

Oddly Influenced
Podcast Episodes
E52: Emotions as concepts [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 33:11
An elaboration on episode 49's description of the brain as a prediction engine, focusing on a theory of what emotions are, how they're learned, and how emotional experiences are constructed. Emotions like anger and fear…
E51: Constructed memories (a nugget) [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 5:39
Memories appear to be constructed by plugging together stored templates. Do concepts operate the same way?SourcesSuzi Travis, "False Memories are Exactly What You Need", 2024.Lisa Feldman Barrett, "The theory of construc…
E50: the preferred level of abstraction (a nugget) [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 16:00
We see a creature near us, and we describe it as a dog. Why that and not "mammal" or "animal"? And if that dog's a Springer Spaniel, and we know it's a Springer Spaniel, why do we nevertheless call it a "dog"? In an appa…
E49: Metaphors and the predictive brain [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 19:27
It's fairly pointless to analyze metaphors in isolation. They're used in a cumulative way as part of real or imagined conversations. That meshes with a newish way of understanding the brain: as largely a prediction engin…
E48: Multiple metaphors [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 27:29
When we name a class name `Invoice`, are we communicating or thinking metaphorically? I used to think we were; now I think we aren't. This episode explains one reason: ordinary conversation frequently uses multiple metap…
E47: Oops! The Winston W. Royce Story [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 26:45
In 1970, Winston W. Royce published a paper “Managing the Development of Large Software Systems.” Later authors cited it as the justification for what had come to be called the "waterfall process." Yet Royce had quite sp…
E46: How do metaphors work? [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 32:07
Conceptual metaphor is a theory in cognitive science that claims understanding and problem-solving often (but not always) happen via systems of metaphor. I present the case for it, and also expand on the theory in the li…
E45: The offloaded brain, part 5: I propose a software design style [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 38:06
In this episode, I ask the question: what would a software design style inspired by ecological and embodied cognition be like? I sketch some tentative ideas. I plan to explore this further at nh.oddly-influenced.dev, a b…
E44: The offloaded brain, part 4: an interview with David Chapman [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 43:55
In the '80s, David Chapman and Phil Agre were doing work within AI that was very compatible with the ecological and embodied cognition approach I've been describing. They produced a program, Pengi, that played a video ga…
E43: The offloaded brain, part 3: dynamical systems [not-audio_url] [/not-audio_url]

Duration: 25:42
Scientists studying ecological and embodied cognition try to use algorithms as little as they can. Instead, they favor dynamical systems, typically represented as a set of equations that share variables in a way that is…